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Author	Topic: Archives: Are they REALLY good reading?
stoter1 Member	posted February 19, 2003 10:37 AM I currently own all of the archives and share the sentiments expressed by many so far. I prefer Silver Age archives they transport me to my youth. I especially like GL and Flash. Flash volume 3 is currently my favorite. My wife is not a comic reader, but she loves Flash. I can't really explain why. but we curl up on Saturday's and read Flash archives. That's why I am so partial to Flash. I think GL is full of wonder, and while the stories are sometimes a bit too fanciful, they are usually quite fun. I can't say enough about Sgt. Rock. I bought this one on ebay foy 20 bucks and didnt' expect much, but let me tell you, it's one of the best archives available. Aquaman was cute and took me back to my Superfriends days, but in all honesty, I could not get through it in one day. I echo the setiment expressed by many that thses archives shouls not be read in one sitting. Many times, I read four archives at once. It just breaks things up. Supergirl archives is just plain fun, and other than the cover, whxih is a big turn off, the stories and art are pretty good. Doom Patrol was ok, but not really my cup of tea. Legion has been surprisingly good. I can't recomend Enemy Ace. The art is superb, but the stories are really lacking. World's Finest have been incredibly fun redas. If you are at all nostalgic for zany adventures with Bats and Supes, you can't go wrong. My wife loves these as well. I always buy JLA. Not sure if I actually like these anymore, or I buy them because I like the JLA. Sekowsky is hit or miss for me. I never cared much for the concept of Atom or Hawkman, so thse archives are not high on my list. When it comes to Golden Age, I have actually enjoyed Batman. Superman was great until about Volume 3. After that point, the stories bacme troo repetitive for my tastes. Flash and GL were untreadable, but I would still support the line for historical purposes. I actually like WW. The stories are quaint, but I cant take them in large doses. I anxiously await Spectre. Sit back and enjoy the archive line for waht it is. These stories are from another age, another time. Theye are great stories, just different from today's fare. I can say in all honesty that I have not reretted one archive purchase. IP: Logged
Craig Delich Member	posted February 19, 2003 02:15 PM quote: Originally posted by kjames: I've only got eight Archives to date so I'm not the most well versed reader here, but I have read and enjoyed each one. I also have all 32 masterworks (silver age marvel is my 1st priority) and have enjoyed those immensely. Your points certainly are valid for some of the material (i.e. relative crudeness of artwork, lack of character development, etc.). However, to me the high points heavily outweigh the low points in the Archives I own. While I will admit that today's artists certainly have more time to dwell on the details of their panels, the modern storytelling just isn't my cup of tea. I read comics for escapist type fun and like to share them with my kids. The older material certainly has its fair share of silliness, but it also has a charm that just doesn't seem to be reproduceable these days. I've tried to have a look at today's books but continue to be turned off. For example: Ultimate Spiderman seems to limit itself to about 5 words per page. It stretched the origin story to "forever and a day" and still didn't seem to convey anything more than Ditko did in a few pages. Also, character angst and the grim and gritty theme has been taken to the extreme. Both have zero appeal for me. I know I'm in a small minority of comics readers, but I've relegated myself to reprint collections from years gone by. I will continue to purchase and read them as funds allow. {REPLY FROM CRAIG DELICH}: I'm with you. Comics were meant in the early days for kids and a way of escapism....you don't see that today. Frankly, I'm fed up with muscle-bound heroes that look like Schwartzeneger, sexy, scantily-clad women and reality written stories. Heck, I live with grim, gritty REALITY every day of my life, and I like to get away from that for awhile. The Golden Age stuff gets me away from it, again as I said if only for a little while. Older fans like myself (I'm 56) don't buy much, if any, of the newer stuff except on rare occasions for the reasons above. And the cost is much too prohibitive.....in my teens, 20's and 30's, I collected some 35 different titles per month. Only people w/the upper 5-figure salaries can afford that kind of price tag today. I hear parents today at comic cons bemoaning cost, violence and sexuality in comics being published today. When I was still teaching school, less than 3% of my students even read comics, let alone bought them. Well, I'll get off my soapbox....but, I prefer the Golden Age and early Silver Age stuff, and collect those volumes to read and re-read.} IP: Logged
Old Dude Member	posted February 19, 2003 07:03 PM Craig, welcome to the boards! At 56 you just might be the REAL old dude around here. IP: Logged
Melkor New Member	posted February 19, 2003 07:27 PM quote: When it comes to Golden Age, I have actually enjoyed Batman. Superman was great until about Volume 3. After that point, the stories bacme troo repetitive for my tastes. Flash and GL were untreadable, but I would still support the line for historical purposes. I actually like WW. The stories are quaint, but I cant take them in large doses. I anxiously await Spectre. Sit back and enjoy the archive line for waht it is. These stories are from another age, another time. Theye are great stories, just different from today's fare. I can say in all honesty that I have not reretted one archive purchase. I agree that this stuff was of another era and needs to be apprpached that way, but I just can't justify spending $50 for a book that I can't stand reading (I also think golden age Flash and GL are unreadable, as is All Star.) And of course there are golden age stories that are fun to read--the Shazam and Batman Archives have given me plenty of these, and I'm sure Plastic man will as well. It's not that the golden age was solely the province of crude, bad stories; it's that, like in any other era, there is some material that's good and some stuff that's outright bad. I have hope for the golden age Hawkman...here's hoping all that gorgeous art isn't wasted by lousy writing. Oh, and someone was recommending I pick up the silver age Hawkman Archives--but isn't that when they changed his costume to eliminate the Hawk helmet, or am I wrong? No hawk helmet, no Hawkman as far as I'm concerned. Also, the golden age Hawkman had an interesting mystcal origin. The silver age revamp was just more of the Grade-Z science fiction stuff that Schwartz forced on all the revamped JSA characters. The science angle worked for Flash and GL; I always thought it was a drastic misstep with Hawkman. Mark IP: Logged
Scott Nichols Member	posted February 19, 2003 07:36 PM Hawkman has his helmet, never fear. We will have to agree to disagree about the quality of the stories. The Kubert SA Hawkman was part of a very short list of stories that I thought were so entertaining 40 years ago that I am still reading comics today, despite all the dreck I waded through since then. -Scott IP: Logged
Melkor New Member	posted February 19, 2003 07:46 PM quote: Hawkman has his helmet, never fear. We will have to agree to disagree about the quality of the stories. The Kubert SA Hawkman was part of a very short list of stories that I thought were so entertaining 40 years ago that I am still reading comics today, despite all the dreck I waded through since then. Well, I'm not objecting to the stories--I haven't read them--I'm just objecting to the changes in the character when he was reintrduced in the silver age. I liked Hawkman as a mystical avenger, not a science fiction character from "Thanagar". As long as he's got his helmet I might just pick up that silver age archive. Mark IP: Logged
Kamandi Last Boy on Earth Member	posted February 19, 2003 07:48 PM quote: Originally posted by Scott Nichols: Hawkman has his helmet, never fear. We will have to agree to disagree about the quality of the stories SA Hawkman was the first archive I bought and largely because of the recommendations here in DCU Archives forum. I found it very enjoyable with surprisingly inventive writing considering how many time Gardner Fox had been to the well, and dynamic art from Joe Kubert. Only one story in the collection is a dog - one about a villian with a super motorcycle. IP: Logged
James Friel Member	posted February 19, 2003 09:47 PM Hey, Craig Delich--we're the same age. Did you and your brother used to have a comic shop called All-Star Comics in Detroit? If so, I used to distribute comics to you. IP: Logged
Scott Nichols Member	posted February 19, 2003 09:48 PM Melkor, GA Hawkman is one of my most desired Archives and I have been pleased that DC has returned to the original concept (sort of) for the new series, even if I have no interest in the new material. As a 6 year old, I loved the early 60s stories and still enjoy them today. Luckily, I missed the motorcycle gang story the first time around. Atom was the other series at that time that I loved intensely. -Scott IP: Logged
Aparofan New Member	posted February 19, 2003 10:55 PM I'm also new to this board. I've really been enjoying reading all the interesting posts concerning the quality of the different archives. I agree that the Hawkman archive is one of the best volumes in terms of story and art. I also like the Starman, Sgt. Rock, and Enemy Ace books. I have all the All Star volumes also. While I agree some of the stories in the early volumes are rather crude, they have a certain charm which is very appealing to me. I'm looking forward to picking up Batman: World's Finest and Thunder Agents in the near future. Those look to be good reads. IP: Logged
Old Dude Member	posted February 19, 2003 11:44 PM quote: Originally posted by Melkor: As long as he's got his helmet I might just pick up that silver age archive. Just a warning: In the first three Kubert issues, Hawkman's helmet has no wings. I guess Schwartz et al were trying to streamline the costume somewhat. The old-time fans screamed loudly enough that at the end of the 4th issue, Katar was awarded the helmet wings, which are analogous to sergeant's stripes or lieutenant's bars in earthly police departments. IP: Logged
Craig Delich Member	posted February 20, 2003 01:00 AM quote: Originally posted by James Friel: Hey, Craig Delich--we're the same age. Did you and your brother used to have a comic shop called All-Star Comics in Detroit? If so, I used to distribute comics to you. {REPLY FROM CRAIG DELICH}: No, my brother and I have always lived in Kansas City, Kansas. My brother DID publish my fanzine that I wrote, called The All-Star Comics Revue" back in 1977! IP: Logged
James Friel Member	posted February 20, 2003 02:31 AM quote: Originally posted by Craig Delich: {REPLY FROM CRAIG DELICH}: No, my brother and I have always lived in Kansas City, Kansas. My brother DID publish my fanzine that I wrote, called The All-Star Comics Revue" back in 1977! That would explain the confusion--I think I remember that one of these guys was named Craig, and I did in fact buy my copy of your fanzine (which I still have) from them. IP: Logged
Craig Delich Member	posted February 20, 2003 09:39 AM quote: Originally posted by James Friel: That would explain the confusion--I think I remember that one of these guys was named Craig, and I did in fact buy my copy of your fanzine (which I still have) from them. {REPLY FROM CRAIG DELICH}: Glad you picked my zine up. I had 2167 copies of it printed and sold out in less than 3 months. Why I never went back to press, I don't know.....I still have people today writing me wanting copies (I even went so far as to pick up a copy of it at a local convention, for $45, to sell to that guy, which he gladly bought at that price! As you probably know, Roy Thomas asked my brother and I permission to update my Revue, and he did with The All-Star Companion, which also sold out. IP: Logged
Schatzie Member	posted March 09, 2003 12:38 PM I find that generally that the Archives I purchase are far more enjoyable than contemporary comic books. The stories have a sense of wonder that seems to be missing from comic books of the last 10 years. I have all but given up on the Marvel and DC of today; my list now only includes AVENGERS, BATMAN, and G3 and by the end of the year these titles stand a good chance of not being on my purchasing list. In contrast, I can generally count on Archives to fill my "wants" of action, fantasy, and heroic characters within the context of a good story. IP: Logged
Schatzie Member	posted March 09, 2003 12:43 PM For some context... I am only 31, so I was not around for the silver age (let alone the golden age) the first time around, yet these eras are my favorites for comic books. IP: Logged
roccomorocco Member	posted March 09, 2003 05:58 PM I'm 55, so I am essentially a child of the Silver Age. At the time I was a rather frustrated child, however, since I thought the potential of the revived Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, and Justice League was much, much greater than its execution. While I did like Fox and Broome, I wondered why everything couldn't just be drawn by Murphy Anderson! When I discovered the Golden Age, retrospectively, in the pages of Flash and JLA with the Earth-2 cross-overs, and, later, in stacks of old comics discarded by the older siblings of friends of mine, I became more frustrated. I was convinced that those characters and their adventures were vastly superior to what I was reading in 1961. Guess what? That was only true of titles like Captain Marvel Adventures and Plastic Man. Or The Spirit. Wonder Woman, but only in comparison to her '60s persona. And the very early Superman and Batman (No wonder they both took the world by storm!). I've been collecting most of the Archives, skipping only Legion and Teen Titans. I've been enjoying them, too. Mostly the enjoyment comes from nostalgia (revisiting the Silver Age comics of my childhood), or that same exultation mentioned above of having finally acquired the early GA stories that I thought would forever elude me, especially All-Star and Captain Marvel. But there is a real, lasting, heartfelt enjoyment in reading those stories that have forever resonated with young (or young at heart) readers. To date, that heartfelt enjoyment has come most from the Batman and Superman Archives, both World's Finest Archives, the most recent volume of All-Star, Shazam! volume 2, all the Plastic Man editions, a couple of stories from the SA Hawkman (both from B&B #35), and Enemy Ace (formulaic as it might be). But I'm hardly disappointed in any of the Archives I've collected. I thought the JLA stories were sometimes a torture to read even when they first appeared, but I look back with fondness on the Fox-Sekowsky run now, and find that it compares favorably with dreck like "the Obsidian Age." The best comics are written for the child in each of us. All of the Archives have that in common. IP: Logged
James Friel Member	posted March 11, 2003 03:11 AM Oh, good. So The Obsidian Age really is dreck, and it's not just me? That's reassuring. Good to see another semicentenarian here, rocco. That makes six or seven of us, I think, although I'm delighted that some of the folks here who most appreciate and who know a lot about Golden Age comics are sometimes among the youngest. IP: Logged
srca1941 Member	posted March 11, 2003 08:39 AM quote: Originally posted by James Friel: ...I'm delighted that some of the folks here who most appreciate and who know a lot about Golden Age comics are sometimes among the youngest. It shouldn't be too surprising. Gold (and Silver) Age books are often better than the new material that's out there. I'm 20 and can't get enough! (Then again, I'm not your typical 20 year old...) The archives are very handy to take with me and read in-between classes at school (leaving the duct jackets at home for safe keeping of course). In fact, I'm just getting ready to leave now, and take Plastic Man vol.2 with me! -Steve ------------------ Visit "The Golden Years" http://www.goldenyears.cjb.net My "Future Archives" Page: http://www.dcarchives.cjb.net IP: Logged
Pig Iron Member	posted March 11, 2003 01:15 PM Craig, on a side note, why do all the best copies of books usually come from the Kansas and Texas areas of the US?? Unless it's a warehouse copy I always have the best luck buying floppies from those regions. Just an observation and a question if you know.. To the main question. I find myself buying certain Archives for historic value and interest in the character. I buy few Batman archives. While I will eventually get them all I don't enjoy them that much, but i do buy them to understand the history of the character, company and creators. Archives are certainly a flavor item. What's your favorite flavor of ice cream? 10 people here will likely give you 10 different answers, but if you ask the top three favorites..you will probably get a lot of people to say vanilla or chocolate. If that makes any sense. Most people tend to say GL, GA Gl, Doom Patrol, World's Finest, All-Star, Hawkman and Flash. That's my consensus. My personal favorites are Supergirl, Action, Doom Patrol and Shazam. It's hard to say when you get most of them. They tend to be enjoyable for different reasons. And I don't see that changing. IP: Logged
Schatzie Member	posted March 11, 2003 10:11 PM quote: Originally posted by roccomorocco: The best comics are written for the child in each of us. Well said. IP: Logged
Schatzie Member	posted March 15, 2003 04:22 PM quote: Originally posted by Schatzie: I have all but given up on the Marvel and DC of today; my list now only includes AVENGERS, BATMAN, and G3 and by the end of the year these titles stand a good chance of not being on my purchasing list. Well, the changes did not take long...I have dropped G3. As much as I like John Byrne's work, in particular G1 and G2, after three issues the larger story has not caught my interest. IP: Logged
IndianaBoo New Member	posted March 15, 2003 05:42 PM If you can't wait for golden age archives: MicroComics Inc. PO Box 243 Ridgewood, NJ 07451 1-800-666-4054 201-445-3450 201-445-2924 (fax) arah@aol.com (email) Tell them Don Powers recommended MicroComics to you. Comics from DC since Action 1 on microfiche. You have to look at Golden Age material from the perspective of the times they were originally printed in. Writers and Artists were being drafted, production was done by hand, and heroes were either self-made, mystical, or from space..........science fiction and atomic age influences and the return of artists and writers from WWII and Korea would lay the foundations of the super-hero return in the late 50's and better production values. By today's standards, the golden age seems primitive, just as paper comics will be when compared to cd roms in about 25-50 years or as hand drawn art versus computer graphics are now. They are great to read if you are interested in a character's historical beginnings and the original creators' take on the character, instead of trying to compare the character to today's standards. Apples to Oranges, I say. IP: Logged

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